these are the images the world has been seeing from the streets of canada. trying to corporations rule the day. he says rebels in libya west capital claiming they control gadhafi. they say is preparing to assume full control of operations in the country. or little foreign interest questions are raised why the coalition forces are only targeting libya middies experts suggest the reason is revenge rather than to protect civilians. also this hour radiation surges to andre three thousand times

above normal at the fukushima nuclear plant while japan's. have what it's called on acceptable mistakes in handling the crisis the earthquake and tsunami disaster has killed ten thousand safe on davis sixteen thousand still missing. the foreign forces have gone into libya to protect the people of political points. came. along and welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle libya within the great arab awakening a one off detour for the maintenance of western military and political intervention in the arab world when it comes to libya and the arab world what is the difference

between humanitarian aid and western geopolitical interests. and you can. discuss libya and the great arab awakening i'm joined by islam qassam in the hague he is a strategic analyst at the hague center for strategic studies in cairo we crossed the editing should go fisher he is a visiting distinguished lecturer at the american university in cairo and in san francisco we have eric harris he is the founder and managing editor of antiwar dot com all right gentlemen this is cross talk you all have different points of view and i want my viewers to see them ok eric if i can go to you and kind of maybe change the direction of discourse at least from western media and looking at libya and what is going in the in the arab world i mean let's take it back a few months we have tunisia we have egypt ok then we have the crackdown in bahrain we have sodium rabia suddenly disappears more or less from western media it is

essentially invaded another country and shut off the protest movement there and now we have libya and mr gadhafi well a very colorful figure i can look at all of our ages here and we know him quite well he's been brought into the cold and now he's back in the deep freeze here but mr gadhafi the new hitler of the region if i can use that term he's become very convenient for a lot of interest number one slow down the the reform movement the democratic reform movement in the arab world we have again western intervention in a muslim country and we have dictatorships that are saying who had good that the military is back to to create order where there is chaos and you know libya is the epicenter what do you think of that narrative am i being too extreme. no i don't think so at all i think that one of the reasons obama has gone into libya is to distract people from the fact that the united states supports most of these

dictators and certainly we don't want to have any sort of comparison with bahrain where we are supporting the government against the protesters and we do i mean in the military and intervention in libya here i mean there was no public debate at least in the united states very little in europe i mean i can remember all of many of the the wars all twenty three of the military interventions and wars since the collapse of the soviet union and this one there was no debate in the united states whatsoever we just woke up he said one morning and we have another military operation in the in the in the arab world i mean so they really can't even circus circumvented what bush did bush started from scratch drummed up a war and this time it was not even a media debate about it. that's right this is really unprecedented obama has built upon the usurpations of previous presidents and gone into libya without any approval from congress without any consultation really from congress and when he

was running for president in two thousand and seven he said that the president has no right to go into another country unless they are threatening an immediate attack on us without consulting and getting the approval of congress ok islam in the hague if i could go to you who are these rebels in libya because the deeper i look into this because we have called the democratic opposition i don't know why they're called democratic we don't know much about their credentials except for their former loyalists to khadafi and some dissidents and then there's some people out there that are saying that a great number of the people from. in the in iraq coalition forces a good number of them were libyans coming from eastern libya and they were working with al qaeda and i mean those are not very good credentials for democrats democrats and reformers is it. well we know something about the opposition we know

some of them are judges some of the marquee chairs some of them are businessmen some are defected generals from the. army so we know something about them but what we also know is that they want to they want to get rid of qaddafi they want to have a different political regime in libya and their demands are legitimate ok well if i can islam if i can stay with you i mean so would you throw in the democratic term democratic because you just mentioned a lot of people that want to get rid of gadhafi ok fair enough i mean getting rid of gadhafi on many people's agenda here but is that in the name of democracy or is it just a land grab opportunist or oil realignment eccentric setter i mean again you know the labels thrown out there a lot but is there any substance to it. well these are two different issues the first issue is this intervention about land to grab an oil another or other

european or western interests is the intervention in itself legitimate or not so that's one issue the second issue is what's going to happen. if this is what. will happen so these are two different issues the first the first issue i think we have to remember what was happening in libya just three or two three days ago how different forces were on the doors of benghazi how the intervention did not take place benghazi would be completely taken over by. guys who would have been taken completely over by qaddafi so that's the first issue the second issue is what is going to happen after we do hope and we are thinking and we are planning for we were talking about democratic transition you're right we don't know but this is this is at least the hope of the of the opposition this is the hope of the rest of the international community is that in cairo if i can go to you with me on western

intervention here and again as we're sitting at this virtual table there's still different interpretations of what who's doing what did what the united states is doing with its coalition partners what nato is doing what i'm not sure of misters arcos even knows what he wants to do because he keeps changing his tune here but the very fact that there's a military intervention still again an arab country from western forces outside particularly united states is that going to taint any put any political outcome that is a result of this and i'm obviously i'm talking about the post gadhafi period whenever that happens to happen. yes i think libya is actually a testing ground in the middle east now for the how to deal with the protest movements that started in tunisia earlier this year we have seen as you said in the introduction we have seen tunisia and egypt going in a certain direction where the military basically refused to use their military power in order to crush the protest movement in libya we see the opposite model

where the lot of the ruler is sticks to his guns literally and use them against the population now if this works as their fee managers to overcome the opposition and to crush them using the army and to reestablish his tight grip on libya this will send a very clear signal to the others in the region who are watching very closely you can see in yemen already one cuz if we started to use force the yemeni president shifted tactics and then you see behind me in which in my view cannot be understood without lots happening in libya so what is happening there of course it's about libya but it's also about the future of this protest movement in the region and this what makes it more important and this what makes it touches on the interest of the united states and europe and all those players who have interest in a stable more or less democratic middle east ok eric i mean when i look at the resolution one nine seven three i do i've read it over and over again i don't see

where the the the resolution the people that will enforce a resolution have the right to align themselves with anyone in libya but that is happening from the get go we see we see people from this opposition group the rebels working very closely with nato forces and that is not part of the resolution and what i'm getting at is this set a very dangerous precedent because the united states and its allies can go after countries and leaders it doesn't like but it can be silent as it can be bahrain is a very good example don't talk about saudi arabia again this is just another means for and i'm thinking about this transition that we're seeing in north africa the west wants to grab it in control it all over again it really is afraid of democracy in north africa. that's right the united states is not interested in democracy in the middle east or north africa unless it suits their purposes as admiral mullen said a few days ago the big difference between libya and bahrain is that libya is an enemy

and bahrain is an ally we don't have any consistent principles when it comes to intervention of the united states doesn't islam what do you think about the no principles. yeah i disagree with this is statement i think this is not really the united states this is about libya. so what we have here is i agree with you even to only agree and the issue here is that you have the libyan opposition is asking for intervention turned over to when replying to the situation is very different well i mean there's lots of people asking for intervention i mean just because some group asks the u.s. to intervene doesn't mean that we should do it and in fact the united states has such a bad record of military intervention over the last fifty years i think we should just stay out of all of these countries this is trade with all you know we have and left me determine their own futures. is what you want to report this is all right

and i'm sorry and so you know and jump in go ahead in cairo go ahead you have been there i'm just saying i want you know i hate to intervene in in the debate about the american position and the administration and its critics if we bring the region's perspective here yes we would agree that intervention especially by western states in any arab or muslim country is not something that would be welcomed here but look at this it would have been much better if the international community very huge and the others intervened earlier on when political interventions could have been effective probably more effective and less costly in human life and in material destruction than this but they did it nobody did and you know better than ever that you know it is with aids eric jump in go ahead go ahead go ahead eric it would have been better if the united states had stayed out of this to begin with we're the ones that have been propping up these leaders we have given

millions of dollars to moammar gadhafi you know the as you said as you know we're the fed does that mean we can not to start doing the right thing. and i wanted to. say around we beat up a lot inside and then we beat on the heels of that now that now we have the opportunity to do something very different and this is not that about western intervention this is going to insinuate people you know going to the. back this is not a bad day united states you got ten members of the security calling you can who are already. here we're going to continue this discussion after a short break and after that story we'll continue talking about libya in the greater middle east a thirty. story .

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markets why not scandals. find out what's really happening to the global economy in the kinds of reports on r.g.p. . and you can see. the. welcome to rostock on people about to remind you we're discussing libya's future. ok eric i'd like to talk about the logic of humanitarian assistance and military intervention what about the ivory coast what about the sudan over the last decade or so what about bahrain to today why aren't why isn't there just a a huge storm you know let's go protect these poor people they've been rising up for

our freedoms well. for help lead pleading for help and no one helps them militarily no one intervenes for them but when we have a group of unknown people and i'm sorry i'm not going to let these rebels off in libya until we know who we are who they are i mean you had the mujahideen you had cos of oh you had you know because these were not nice people and we knew we knew it at the time and we knew it after the fact so and kind of what you're saying jumping in way too quick before we know what's going on so humanitarian aid is only useful when it has a geo political interest and my being too cynical no and humanitarian to even use the term humanitarian aid when you're talking about bombs is ridiculous this is not like we're sending them food or or some kind of real aid we are killing people and we're killing people on both sides we're killing libyan government troops who are defending their own country i mean they're doing what they pledged to do and we have no writing team going in there now but to answer you're a defender of g.m.

this is not what they're paid to this is not their mission in the military at all do you and many have already told me i'm already able to grab a letter and you know what it is you know i mean who are who is the united states go ahead erick finish you know you finish your point the military should stay in. the military the u.s. military should stay out of all of these countries and the fact that you're not intervening is not you know much more you know your situation is like you know ivory coast. this is why aren't we in the ivory lot of you having a liaison where you just ban islam you go you go first go first that they go and the question is the question is ask yourself three days ago why would you like to see gadhafi forces taken over benghazi can you just think about the the coming of the consequences of the. i don't know what do you think because if you're taken over by i think the united states has no business the united states has no

business trying to tell the libyan people or the people in other countries of that region how they should conduct their affairs and the united states has a one hundred percent failing record of intervention we go in there and we mass everything up and that's exactly what we're going to do now and we're going to do the revolution and the only ones you need in cairo where you are going to hand off and we kind of want remains and will already know you're going to we're in cairo. yes all right now eric again i think the principle you're defending is perfectly sound but i'm a little bit worried about the self-righteousness of the principle when you apply it then it turns into a disaster yes the united states has no business intervening in the middle east but the fact is since nine hundred forty five the united states is in the middle east

it is there every day it's there and always in israel all there is doing is trying to fix the problems that they create you know if you want to boil it out if you want to pull very. out all my hand i want you out of the united states and foreign aid to israel and we're out of the middle eight hours from the oil business first pull it out from the oil business first and let me see how this goes but there's the united states is going to remain engaged defacto in the region and then they cannot train again it's other responsibilities you can't just have business with the other three and he was a eric and they're your real tears as they are to be able to see the houses through https should not be in there trying to defend us only also just the business. that's a very good point is not going to go not be there we should not it is going to the hague that's a very interesting point that there's a grand there. you know it's again bring somebody good point out a gentleman listen up ok i mean if i do i'll go in

a second let me kind of redefine the question arose gentlemen place eric said you know the united states should get out of the region ok eric if you don't mind i'll refine that a little bit maybe the united states it will stay in the region because it has been their business interest trade interests but the united states should be determining political outcomes islam do you agree with that statement i'm talking about the u.s. and you know if oil oil is not a well developed area we should not be defending the oil where i see oil so yes or any idea what is the idea in the middle east here i don't know that you know the military is going to take it away. should be abolished islam but i hear you have got the you've got the floor go ahead sir i'd like to make two points first of all the oil business libya is not libya produces less than two percent of the world output so this is one thing this is really not about oil especially when we're talking about the united states had this conversation been about saudi arabia maybe

that's the conversation would be different their interest here is really not the u.s. of course it would be the united states would be to that let me. let me finish it please this is about if we're speaking about interest then we must speak about european countries and their interests not the united states the focus here on the united states i think is a bit misleading first of all france and the u.k. took the lead on libya not the u.s. the u.s. is still there is this moment why has it and in fact. obama wants to hand it all but as a quick just read the paper i just read the press so this is really not an american war with. the united states carrying you know you know like a well known internationally and shot we know of the french and the british where the leader is behind this operation not obama. obama administration so what i see here is madness friends in the rebels are going to have to stay out of there as if

i'm going to go right now when you ask is a i want to go to i want to go to the i want to get this is a bowl in the ok all right eric finish your point there's really no it's not going to i want to see a shop the u.s. ok the u.s. is a bull in a china shop you do not ask the ball to fix things you get him out of the china shop before you try and fix things as it is and if i go to you in cairo let's try to square the circle here because i don't think we can here we've had president obama coming out hillary clinton we've had european leaders cameron we have had sort of cozy talking about freedom democracy all those nice things that we all like to hear about and we think about ourselves ok but how do you square that with military intervention by arming people can you bring all these wonderful ideas through the through the tube bombing people killing innocent civilians create creating political facts on the ground you with military use can you bring the two

together. unfortunately yes you can bring the two together it's a sad situation as i said it's a policy that is far from being an idea the idea it would have been a much earlier intervention politically to prevent because if you from using his military to crush the civilians but now this is where we are you have a ruler who supported the war supported an all army to body that western states who is using those armaments and using this technical military know how in order to kill civilians this is what he's doing so the intervention now is in order to protect the civilians it is not in order to assessed to assist or a bad as the mightily always there trying to say we think everyone has the right i would like to add i would like to add a few more things to this now with a military intervention is necessary at this point to at this point in time but also we need to think about the post situation we need to be thinking about. the

type of planning the type of organization that needs to take place the biggest mistake that only was worried i hear what i was already planning a libyan government reaction we did not have a development of plans in place so in that case of libya what needs to be taken place at this moment at the time that we are engaged in military intervention is also a second track in which the then you for construction for a transition to democracy or poor economic development is also taking place ok. and you are you can military as i am i going to niger that woman i'm sorry eric i'm going to ask your question that's my question too i mean again we know the united states and its allies go into iraq ok and i think everyone even even the hardcore neo cons at least admit today well we didn't have the end game figured out too well ok and there was no public debate about libya whatsoever i mean is anybody have a clue about what the end game is going to be about because most people don't even

have a clue. what we're doing right now is if i go to you in cairo go ahead yes very quickly iraq is completely difference in the case of iraq the united states unilaterally decided to go into a country and change their g.m. there against the advice of everyone in the region especially its own allies and also in europe so that's without a u.n. without a u.n. resolution and so on that was a total fiasco from day one until today that's a completely different operation with really more of our lives you have to better understand. say that again erica had the more the more bullies you get involved the more you can rationalize it because no one has to take responsibility you know exactly the opposite when the intervention is done by a group of states who are responding to calls for intervention that is driven by the protection of what they are having at least they are developing as

a remarkably ok islam i want to ask you i mean if they are bad almost out of time and you no matter how you want everybody to answer the next question what is the fate of the democratic great democratic experiment that started in north africa islam i ask you because the west had some beautiful words over the last few weeks now they're dropping bombs what's the future of democracy now. well i think there is a good hole for it i think what we need to do is three three things first make sure the rebels are adal position are well armed the second thing we need to do is to make sure that. when is. sanctioned to make sure that he does not have the financial and the military capabilities to fight back and a third one is. to make sure that the opposition have the necessary training and organization to help them transition to democracy. the situation that.

time eric i'm going to give you the last ten seconds go i don't think you're going to see democracy in libya any time soon right now i sorry you know we have to jump in we're running out of time there's been a great discussion many thanks to my guest today in the hague cairo and in san francisco and thanks to our viewers for watching if you darkie see you next time and remember crosstalk.